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Guidelines

 

  • Guidelines

    Hi.

    Just joined this group - thanks for the invite, Fulvian.

    I am definitely ready to help improve the wiki, but before I dive in, I was wondering if there were any guidelines? For example, is colourful writing, tinged with appreciative opinion allowed, or does it have to be wikipedia-neutral? Or maybe the jury is still out on this...

    Personally, I favour the first: a) because most artists already have a wikipedia entry, b) because colourful writing is more fun to do and engaging to read. As an example, I have been trying to get the Lisa Germano entry into shape over the past week or so; it was dry, uninspiring, and lacking in detail before. But maybe it's too opinionated now? I'm sure there are many improvements that could be made.

    Thoughts? References? Comments?

    Chris

    PS Please don't point me at this: http://www.last.fm/group/The+Wiki+Improvement+Clan/forum/88133/_/391977 - already read it and it doesn't answer my question.

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  • Dam the PS!

    I need to get my ass into gear and do a total guidline 'booklet' :)

    But i point out the things you did wrong in the wiki (or right) shall I?

    [*artist]Lisa Germano[*/artist] is a multi-instrumentalist, singer, writer and arranger from Mishawaka, Indiana.

    After years playing violin as a session musician with the likes of John Mellancamp, Indigo Girls and Bob Dylan, Germano embarked on a solo career 1991 with the patchy, but occasionaly brilliant On the Way Down From the Moon Palace on her own label, which led to a deal with Capitol, who released her second album, Happiness. Although a massive step up in terms of confidence and songwriting, troubles at the label led to her buying back the rights to the album. In 1994 4AD released a re-sequenced and remixed version of Happiness with a few different tracks (including a frankly inferior, but suitably gloomy version of ‘... Dresses’).

    Germano turned out to be not just a great musician (she plays most of the instruments: piano, guitar, percussion, tape effects, etc; as well as her trademark violin) and a wittily melancholy if kooky songwriter (‘I Love A Snot’, indeed), but a phenomenal arranger whose innovation and breadth of expression is comparable to PJ Harvey at her tape-magling best.

    As her style developed, so the music’s potential commercial appeal increased without compromising its uniqueness. Bright kaleidoscopes during an otherwise dark time in 4AD’s history, the following three albums, Geek the Girl, Excerpts from a Love Circus and Slide all won critical accalim, but sadly failed to reach the wide audience they deserved; Germano was dropped in 1998, and announced her retirement from the music biz.

    In 1997, she also released a hit-and-miss collaboration with Giant Sand (and future members of Calexico) under the name OP8 (Featuring The Ilk Of Lisa Germano).

    Retirement didn’t suit her, and she was soon out on tour again, sessioning for David Bowie and Neil Finn, before, in 2003, releasing lullaby for liquid pig on ArtistDIRECT imprint Ineffable. A return to the woozy, after-the-carnival soundworld of ...Love Circus, the album was made with help from collaborators Finn, Johnny Marr and Wendy Melvoin.

    Label-less again after Ineffable dissolved, Swans bloke and longtime Germano fan Michael Gira snapped her up for his Young God label, which in 2007 released In the Maybe World, a more stripped-down but ultimately hopeful affair inspired by the death of, well a cat, but also the imagined death of her Father. Young God subsequently reissued Liquid Pig with an extra CD of live recordings and demoes, whose between-song banter highlighted Germano’s unique and cat-slanted take on life and death.

    Official site: www.lisagermano.com


    All red comments:

    1) Do not link back to the artists page. What's the point? Either Bold type (eg: [*b][*/b] without stars) or leave it. But for professionalism bold type is best.

    2) Capitol: Link to either label's website in the sources or using BBcode within article. This gives relevent information about the artist at the label website and a follow-up reading for the viewer. (I am assuming capitol is the label not money).

    3) Album tags there alright, but i rather to use quotation marks ("example title") in Italic writing. Stands out. (eg: [*i]"title"[*/i] without stars.) but by all means tag it. However, look at the proffesionalism and presentation, to see if it stands out and gives the reader a importance to that title or name.

    4) 4AD = ?

    5) (including a frankly inferior, but suitably gloomy version of ‘... Dresses’). Personnal opinion not allowed in wiki's rules

    6)"Germano turned out to be not just a great musician (she plays most of the instruments: piano, guitar, percussion, tape effects, etc; as well as her trademark violin) and a wittily melancholy if kooky songwriter (‘I Love A Snot’, indeed), but a phenomenal arranger whose innovation and breadth of expression is comparable to PJ Harvey at her tape-magling best."

    bold type 1: Variation is the key like you have said, maybe put she/he/the band/the artist for instance, as we know her name via the intro line.

    bold type 2: Avoid using this word. But if it is a too long list, the simple thing is to leave it out.

    bold type 3: I don't know this is a word. However, still it's a tad opinunated narrative than being neutral in agreement. I may be being a tad harsh here.

    bold type 4: same as above. (3)

    7) Near perfect this paragraph. One thing in bold which has been mentioned above. Aswell as 'biz' shortened to Business. Look for shortened variations in slang english.

    8) Did not. tad harsh again, probably.

    9) means? expression is important, that everyone understands the description

    10) Wikis are for narrative descriptions not for links out side (exceptions: BBcode, Factbox and Narrative form are allowed.)

    I don't like links, like this, on the wiki. I take them out with no remorse for the artist/band, as i am very quick going around Moding different wikis everyday. However, I like extra links that are relevent to the reader/viewer, as mentioned above somewhere.

    Blue type

    1) I don't think this is needed. Look at over detailed description.

    2) Album name? or label? - expression is important, that everyone understands the description

    3) Look for shortened variations in slang english - Bloke could be artist, fan, member etc..

    4) The way it is put - I explain it in guidlines.



    Note: All Underlinment will be explained in the guidline booklet which will be typed up over the weekend, hopefully

    Hope that helps.

    I use this as an example for the guidlines. :)

    Regards
    Meld.

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  • Thanks for your very detailed response. I appreciate the style points you've raised, where to embolden, etc (totally agree with not linking to the page itself). I have made some changes taking most, but not all ;-), of your points into account. I'm slightly worried that I may have overdone the bold - what do you think?

    I have toned down the opinions, while still trying to convey the flavour of her music, which I think is vitally important so that each entry has something unique and compelling about it, not just another dry litany of album releases and lineup changes. Writing about music, or any art, should inspire the reader to want to investigate the art itself. As writers we are struggling against a greater form of expression and our language must sing as much as words on a screen can, even within wiki-ish constraints.

    And, yes, "wittily" is definitely a word - being the adverb of the adjective "witty"; "kooky" probably also.

    I'm not sure what link you're referring to - if you mean her official site, there is a special tag for it, so I used it. But in any case I'm not sure why you're so harsh on offsite links?

    Looking forward to reading your full style guide, and thanks again for the feedback.

    Chris

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    • Fulvian schrieb...
    • Benutzer
    • 9. Mai. 2008, 10:08
    chrisrazor, I invited You because You were active editing wikis :)

    As for me, there's no standard styles, but I mostly stick to Wikipedia style.

    For multi-artist pages, the first paragraph should list an overview of all of the artists (start with the most popular artist), write some basic info on each artist, like their music styles and their origins.

    For single-artist pages, start with the most essential facts like when and where they formed (band) or when and where they're born (person), musical style (refer to what Wikipedia says), etc.

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  • chrisrazor said:
    Thanks for your very detailed response. I appreciate the style points you've raised, where to embolden, etc (totally agree with not linking to the page itself). I have made some changes taking most, but not all ;-), of your points into account. I'm slightly worried that I may have overdone the bold - what do you think?

    I have toned down the opinions, while still trying to convey the flavour of her music, which I think is vitally important so that each entry has something unique and compelling about it, not just another dry litany of album releases and lineup changes. Writing about music, or any art, should inspire the reader to want to investigate the art itself. As writers we are struggling against a greater form of expression and our language must sing as much as words on a screen can, even within wiki-ish constraints.

    And, yes, "wittily" is definitely a word - being the adverb of the adjective "witty"; "kooky" probably also.

    I'm not sure what link you're referring to - if you mean her official site, there is a special tag for it, so I used it. But in any case I'm not sure why you're so harsh on offsite links?

    Looking forward to reading your full style guide, and thanks again for the feedback.

    Chris


    Thanks for the reply, I do however like to point out only the bold type towards the artist within that page. So, if it's a 'such as' artist, you don't need to bold type it. Or it looks like a field parade on some of them. :) Example

    I would like a bit of unique but not too unique, or it goes over the, the opinion/ factual boaderline just a tad. Like i said, I am very harsh sometimes.

    In the guidlines which I am gathering together at the moment will tell what I think, then I can open disscussion. In noway I am trying to be a wikifacist and just tell users 'this is the way and no room for argument'. :)

    Thanks for the consideration and I try to write it up as soon as possible. Gathering up all issues is hard, I might just make a 'diary guide' and see if we can add to it, as a group, later on as we get problems occuring. Trial and error as they say.

    Meld.

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  • In your example, I feel you have it exactly wrong. I would embolden artist names the first time they appear only. What's the point in emphasizing over and over the artist you're writing about?

    Or just leave everything un-emboldened. Last.fm know when something is an artist name, so they could impose bold artist names as house style easily enough through CSS. Maybe we should respect their house style?

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  • chrisrazor said:
    In your example, I feel you have it exactly wrong. I would embolden artist names the first time they appear only. What's the point in emphasizing over and over the artist you're writing about?

    Or just leave everything un-emboldened. Last.fm know when something is an artist name, so they could impose bold artist names as house style easily enough through CSS. Maybe we should respect their house style?


    That's why if you can't think of any other word for the artist's name you put it. Only then. So, if it kept going "X band is" (etc..) for like 5 paragraphs, change it to "The Band.." "they are" (etc...). So, it doesn't get boring or a bit repeative. Like this

    And no to any other artists mentioned. It will just make it disgustingly bold and full. :)



    Meld.

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    • key_man schrieb...
    • Benutzer
    • 19. Mai. 2008, 10:36

    Re Feedback from Meld to Chris

    Many good bits of wisdom in your response, although found it a little harsh on some points. Some points were possibly more personal preferences rather than firm rules of readability and relevance?

    With a bit of "tongue-in-cheek" I humbly submit the following...


    I the spirit of your response to Chris I thought I might post some suggestions regarding your response. My comments are in blue and selected portions of your response have been highlighted in red:



    1) Do not link back to the artists page. What's the point? Either Bold type (eg: [*b][*/b] without stars) or leave it. But for professionalism bold type is best.

    2) Capitol: Link to either label's website in the sources or using BBcode within article. This gives relevent information about the artist at the label website and a follow-up reading for the viewer. (I am assuming capitol is the label not money) As most people would know that Capital is money while Capitol is not, comment is a little harsh. The website/BBcode comment is very valid, but the trailing comment detracts.

    3) Album tags there alright, but i rather to use quotation marks ("example title") in Italic writing. Stands out. (eg: [*i]"title"[*/i] without stars.) but by all means tag it. However, look at the proffesionalism and presentation, to see if it stands out and gives the reader a importance to that title or name.

    4) 4AD = ?

    5)
    (including a frankly inferior, but suitably gloomy version of ‘... Dresses’).
    Personnal opinion not allowed in wiki's rules

    6)
    "Germano turned out to be not just a great musician (she plays most of the instruments: piano, guitar, percussion, tape effects, etc; as well as her trademark violin) and a wittily melancholy if kooky songwriter (‘I Love A Snot’, indeed), but a phenomenal arranger whose innovation and breadth of expression is comparable to PJ Harvey at her tape-magling best."


    bold type 1: Variation is the key like you have said, maybe put she/he/the band/the artist for instance, as we know her name via the intro line.

    bold type 2: Avoid using this word. But if it is a too long list, the simple thing is to leave it out.

    bold type 3: I don't know this is a word. However, still it's a tad opinunated*opinionated* narrative than being neutral in agreement. I may be being a tad harsh here.

    bold type 4: same as above. (3)

    7) Near perfect this paragraph. One thing in bold which has been mentioned above. Aswell as 'biz' shortened to Business. Look for shortened variations in slang english.

    8) Did not. tad harsh again, probably.I believe that this is a personal preference and may not be seen as an improvement by everyone reading an article. The appropriate use of contractions can improve the readability of an article and avoid sounding overly formal. This is particularly true in the cases of seldomly used full forms, such as using cannot in place of can't. These days, the use of "cannot" in everyday English is generally limited to lending emphasis.

    9) means? expression is important, that everyone understands the description

    10) Wikis are for narrative descriptions not for links out side*outside* (exceptions: BBcode, Factbox and Narrative form are allowed.)

    I don't like links, like this, on the wiki. I take them out with no remorse for the artist/band, as i am very quick going around Moding*modding* However, I believe this is a technospeak expression for modifying and use of "changing" might be just as effective. different wikis everyday. However, I like extra links that are relevent to the reader/viewer, as mentioned above somewhere.

    Blue type

    1) I don't think this is needed. Look at over detailed description.

    2) Album name? or label? - expression is important, that everyone understands the description I believe that Razor's statement of "the album" was a bit of a hint on this.

    3) Look for shortened variations in slang english - Bloke could be artist, fan, member etc..

    4) The way it is put - I explain it in guidlines.



    Note: All Underlinment This is definitely not a word and if it were it would need and "e" between the n and the m. I believe you meant "underlining". will be explained in the guidline booklet which will be typed up over the weekend, hopefully

    Hope that helps.

    I use this as an example for the guidlines. :)


    To a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
    - Key_Man
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  • Re: Re Feedback from Meld to Chris

    key_man said:
    Many good bits of wisdom in your response, although found it a little harsh on some points. Some points were possibly more personal preferences rather than firm rules of readability and relevance?

    With a bit of "tongue-in-cheek" I humbly submit the following...


    I the spirit of your response to Chris I thought I might post some suggestions regarding your response. My comments are in blue and selected portions of your response have been highlighted in red:



    1) Do not link back to the artists page. What's the point? Either Bold type (eg: [*b][*/b] without stars) or leave it. But for professionalism bold type is best.

    2) Capitol: Link to either label's website in the sources or using BBcode within article. This gives relevent information about the artist at the label website and a follow-up reading for the viewer. (I am assuming capitol is the label not money) As most people would know that Capital is money while Capitol is not, comment is a little harsh. The website/BBcode comment is very valid, but the trailing comment detracts.

    3) Album tags there alright, but i rather to use quotation marks ("example title") in Italic writing. Stands out. (eg: [*i]"title"[*/i] without stars.) but by all means tag it. However, look at the proffesionalism and presentation, to see if it stands out and gives the reader a importance to that title or name.

    4) 4AD = ?

    5)
    (including a frankly inferior, but suitably gloomy version of ‘... Dresses’).
    Personnal opinion not allowed in wiki's rules

    6)
    "Germano turned out to be not just a great musician (she plays most of the instruments: piano, guitar, percussion, tape effects, etc; as well as her trademark violin) and a wittily melancholy if kooky songwriter (‘I Love A Snot’, indeed), but a phenomenal arranger whose innovation and breadth of expression is comparable to PJ Harvey at her tape-magling best."


    bold type 1: Variation is the key like you have said, maybe put she/he/the band/the artist for instance, as we know her name via the intro line.

    bold type 2: Avoid using this word. But if it is a too long list, the simple thing is to leave it out.

    bold type 3: I don't know this is a word. However, still it's a tad opinunated*opinionated* narrative than being neutral in agreement. I may be being a tad harsh here.

    bold type 4: same as above. (3)

    7) Near perfect this paragraph. One thing in bold which has been mentioned above. Aswell as 'biz' shortened to Business. Look for shortened variations in slang english.

    8) Did not. tad harsh again, probably.I believe that this is a personal preference and may not be seen as an improvement by everyone reading an article. The appropriate use of contractions can improve the readability of an article and avoid sounding overly formal. This is particularly true in the cases of seldomly used full forms, such as using cannot in place of can't. These days, the use of "cannot" in everyday English is generally limited to lending emphasis.

    9) means? expression is important, that everyone understands the description

    10) Wikis are for narrative descriptions not for links out side*outside* (exceptions: BBcode, Factbox and Narrative form are allowed.)

    I don't like links, like this, on the wiki. I take them out with no remorse for the artist/band, as i am very quick going around Moding*modding* However, I believe this is a technospeak expression for modifying and use of "changing" might be just as effective. different wikis everyday. However, I like extra links that are relevent to the reader/viewer, as mentioned above somewhere.

    Blue type

    1) I don't think this is needed. Look at over detailed description.

    2) Album name? or label? - expression is important, that everyone understands the description I believe that Razor's statement of "the album" was a bit of a hint on this.

    3) Look for shortened variations in slang english - Bloke could be artist, fan, member etc..

    4) The way it is put - I explain it in guidlines.



    Note: All Underlinment This is definitely not a word and if it were it would need and "e" between the n and the m. I believe you meant "underlining". will be explained in the guidline booklet which will be typed up over the weekend, hopefully

    Hope that helps.

    I use this as an example for the guidlines. :)




    And your just quoted my english boy.

    So 'Modding' would also be wrong. Modifying as you say is the correct term. I do not re-read hocus pocus comments. I only re-read formal written stuff aka wikis and articles.

    Furthermore, if you read the article, I said this is my opinion and I may be harsh.

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    • 2Serenity schrieb...
    • Abonnent
    • 18. Jun. 2008, 15:21
    Thank you for this group, forum and thorough discussion. I was wondering which English style prevails on last.fm. Should it be American English or British English. I am American so I know when I see a British spelling as opposed to an American English spelling. It does not matter to me but to the people who may make an issue should this be highlighted in Meldoicstorm's Official booklet? I know some USA English professors who may try to help out on this site would need to know this difference.

    Wow - so much I did not know. I am so embarrassed! I did not really see these technicalities and I fault last.fm for not making this clear and apparent once you join the site and decide to actively participate in helping out in this matter. I usually rely on the wiki now but then I failed to realize when I first joined last.fm that official bios from the artist website were not acceptable. I listen to a lot of music that is not in the wikipedia too so this is where I have had an issue.

    I plan on fixing all the mistakes I have made and hope to learn from you how to edit it properly. I am totally blushing but thankful for this forum!

    mog.com/serenitylife
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  • Hello

    Formal greetings from United kingdom!

    Well, everything is english in the motherland sense, not americas perception of english. However, it's better than writing it up in chinese so to speak.

    'Meldoicstorm's offical booklet' :) I like that. Anyway, it isn't just me, alot of the disscussions were on the topics so far done. This made influences to the booklet. So, it's more of a 'group' thing, than a single person. :) I just made the idea of the WSE.

    Many users do just paste stuff, which annoys me. Sometimes wikipedia either has a long variable wiki, therefore to long for a summary. Or it has introductions that do not fit the reigeme here. However, wikipedia description is a good starting point, but please please make it your words or our really. Then, it is a clean, professional summary account of all things blue with that band/artist.

    Regards

    Meld.

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  • First Paragraph

    I would like to add a little to what you say about introductions. This passed me by the first few times I wrote up an artist (I am more into improving the Wiki by putting something where before there was nothing; it may just be that with my taste I hit this situation a lot...)

    It important to realise that the last.fm software and the artist homepages display - within limits - the first paragraph of the wiki. Therefore, whatever you may write afterwards, the first paragraph ought to be a concise summary of the artist - who they are, their main achievements, and a little about their style.

    Chris

    PS @key_man: I've been away for a while, but your post was a hoot!

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    • kander1 schrieb...
    • Benutzer
    • 22. Jun. 2008, 23:40

    Style question

    Hi guys. A question of style: Double quotes around track names, when the track is properly tagged with [*track]-tags - do or don't?

    From a visual point of view, I'm saying Don't - but most bio's I come across do have them already there, so by now I'm feeling like I'm breaking convention if I remove them.

    Regards,
    ~~K

    You may say I'm a dreamer, but I know I'm not the only one
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  • Re: Style question

    kander1 said:
    Hi guys. A question of style: Double quotes around track names, when the track is properly tagged with [*track]-tags - do or don't?

    From a visual point of view, I'm saying Don't - but most bio's I come across do have them already there, so by now I'm feeling like I'm breaking convention if I remove them.

    Regards,
    ~~K


    Shouldn't. Not if linked to the actual page. Also Album titles are in Italics with quotes (") around them, tracks (if not tagged) should have one quote (').

    Hope that clears that up.

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  • Re: First Paragraph

    chrisrazor said:
    I would like to add a little to what you say about introductions. This passed me by the first few times I wrote up an artist (I am more into improving the Wiki by putting something where before there was nothing; it may just be that with my taste I hit this situation a lot...)

    It important to realise that the last.fm software and the artist homepages display - within limits - the first paragraph of the wiki. Therefore, whatever you may write afterwards, the first paragraph ought to be a concise summary of the artist - who they are, their main achievements, and a little about their style.

    Chris

    PS @key_man: I've been away for a while, but your post was a hoot!



    Yeah, If I didn't say that, I must have been sleeping whilst typing!

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    • fmera schrieb...
    • Benutzer
    • 5. Aug. 2008, 11:12
    are these guidelines done?

    U.G.L.Y. - changing the face of music, one artist at a time.
    there are some things pngs can't fix. for everything else, there's pngoptimizer.
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    • fmera schrieb...
    • Benutzer
    • 11. Nov. 2008, 6:42
    fmera said:
    are these guidelines done?
    bump.

    i intended to write a simplified wiki style-guide (more for stuff like how or what to link or tag, use of bold & italic text, etc., suggestions on how to structure the content of artist bios and other wikis. i'm pretty sure much of it is already captured in this thread, but it's very hard to read in this form.

    maybe i'll post it at a later date as a new thread, and based on your collective input, keep the one post on top with regular edits (or make it sticky, if that's possible).

    U.G.L.Y. - changing the face of music, one artist at a time.
    there are some things pngs can't fix. for everything else, there's pngoptimizer.
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    • fmera schrieb...
    • Benutzer
    • 9. Jul. 2009, 8:30
    http://www.last.fm/user/fmera/journal/2008/11/20/2ag4t9_wiki_style_guide_%28working_draft%29

    please read and discuss. thks.

    U.G.L.Y. - changing the face of music, one artist at a time.
    there are some things pngs can't fix. for everything else, there's pngoptimizer.
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    • IanAR schrieb...
    • Benutzer
    • 28. Jan. 2011, 13:37

    No Linking 'Back' to Current Page

    Meldoicstorm said:
    [*artist]Lisa Germano[*/artist] is a multi-instrumentalist, singer, writer    red comments:

    1) Do not link back to the artists page. What's the point? Either Bold type (eg: [*b][*/b] without stars) or leave it. But for professionalism bold type is best.    Yes, 'professionalism' - as in, de facto technical writing reference / citation principles.

    Removing such links also improves the pages' SEO - Ian

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