Do You Beleive? haha no really?

here's a question for ya,

with regards to the Bible, what do you actually beleive, how much do you beleive and take for the "God's honest truth?" if you'll excuse the pun haha,

Is Genesis a load of made up gobeldy gook?

Is the whole book word for word to be taken literaly?

Is it a mix of fact and generaly morals to better humanity?

does B.I.B.L.E. to you stand for Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth?

or is it all just a load of cobblers?

I'd be interested in knowing the groups views and if there are any die hard devouts amongst you? :D

Thanks

jack000lad

jack000lad said:
with regards to the Bible, what do you actually beleive, how much do you beleive and take for the "God's honest truth?" if you'll excuse the pun haha,Lol, okay, I believe that the Word of God cannot err. How's that?

Is the whole book word for word to be taken literaly?It depends. Do you prefer Barnabas the Apostle, Augustine of Hippo or Basil of Caesarea? I say that I like all of them when it comes to Genesis. Not that there aren't more Saints that have spoken about Genesis though. I don't believe that it should be taken totally literally, but the part about Adam and Even is a fundamental doctrine. But I believe in evolution as well, it's all in the book.

Is it a mix of fact and generaly morals to better humanity?No, it's not even about morality; it transcends morality.

does B.I.B.L.E. to you stand for Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth?Nope, it's "Be Idle [and] Be Low, Esse!". It's about low-riders who don't work. (Sorry, I've been playing San Andreas lately.)
Well, not only before leaving, but also as long as you are living on Earth. It's about getting closer to God. But I'll rephrase this to the Word of God in general, not just the Bible.

OR THAT TWO-EDGED SWORD THAT JESUS THREW UP!

You are right, I’m not all ‘conflustered’ about Revelation for I don’t see it as a revelation for today’s events…I firmly believe that it was written for the first/second century Christians of the time who were being persecuted. In Rev. 1:10-11 (NKJV) – “I(John the Apostle) was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like the sound of a trumpet saying, “Write in a book what you see, and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodecia” that’s not the only reason though…So from the get-go it is written for the seven churches of Asia…In earlier times such as Daniel, he was told to seal up his visions and 600 years later they were fulfilled by Christ…John was told not to seal up the prophecy and the things therein are for a short time to come…It’s 2000 years later, if it hasn’t been fulfilled yet, Idk what to think...Thats my very simple version to why I don’t get all confused when I read Revelation….In all seriousness, with Revelation if you happen to believe that its for our time, then we could place any current event or one from the darkages/whenever and make it fit…our we can place it in the “things which will shortly come to pass” category, and apply it to Christians who needed comfort throughout the persecution…When I say, its not to be taken literally, that doesn’t mean its wrong…it simply means its of symbols…and I don’t go to mass cus I’m not Catholic…so, I’m not sure about that lol….They were all written by a man, but many were Apostles or those who had connections to them...therefore, they might use improper grammar, but through the help of the Holy Spirit and (God's inspiration)...their teachings will be fine...and since they all concur with each other...I don't see any doctrinal errors...

This isn't my religious website, but it is one where my beliefs concur...I attend "church of Christ" and here are our beliefs, though I don't know who made this page...

http://www.bible.ca/seek-about.htm

secondly you can't really apply revelations to any past catastrophic event because the whole idea of revelations is thats it, THE END, and we all get judged together, all those who have already died and all those who are still alive will be judged and either sent to heaven or hell or whatever, but that hasn't happened yet so surely that would mean Revelation definatly can't be applied to history as we know it?

Show me proof of this or at least where you think this is the point of revelation and i'll talk further...This is simply your opinion with no factual basis shown.

ok so if the bible is "of symbols" then it's open to an infinate number of interpritations, as everyone could decipher it differently, which then goes to say that the Bible means someting different to everyone who reads it and therefore God's word would be understood in an infinate number of ways, which is surely not what God would want?

"Revelation is of symbols", not the entire Bible...Actually, I've never read this, but here's the prologue in my Bible to Revelation...

First of all realize...Who did John write the book of Revelation too? The seven churches of Asia...

Here's what my Bible says...As outside persecution against Christians increased, the first-century church also faced internal problems. They struggled with suffering, spiritual warfare, heretical doctrine and practice, and spiritual apathy. Christ had promised to return--but when? And how? And what would He do about the problems facing the church when He did come back?
Confronted with these circumstances, the original readers of Revelation needed to be both encouraged and exhorted. On the one hand, Revelation was intended to be a promise of divine protection from God's judgement on the world. On the other hand, those who read the book were to take it to heart, and obey, worshipfully standing for the Word of God and the testimony of Jesus, as the Apostle John had. In recording the Revelation of Jesus Christ, John wanted to reassure his readers that Jesus Christ controls the course and climax of history. Gods overriding purpose in all of history is the establishment of the promised messianic kingdom. Associated with this ultimate divine objective is the oppurtunity for believers to persever by faith in a life of obedience. The prospect for these overcomers or victors is the destiny of reigning with Christ as coheirs in his Kingdom...

...As for the date of its writing, clearly Revelation emerged during a time when Christians were suffering persecution. The dates most widely suggested are an early one before A.d. 70, and a later one around A.D. 95...

The strength of the late sixties date rests on the popular myth of that period that the deranged emperor Nero would be revived. This myth parallels much of the imagery of ch. 13. Reference to the "temple of God" and "the altar" Rev.11:1 I Jerusalem, which were both destroyed in A.D> 70, also supports the earlier dating. But the later date, near the end of Domitian's reign of emperor (A.D.81-96), is more likely. The picture of suffering seen in Revelation seems closer to what is known of the persecution under Domitian. There is also the statement of Irenaeus, in about A.D.185, that John wrote Revelation "at the close of Domitian's reign." This would be around A.D. 95

Some history...Reliable hisotical sources dating from the second century A.D. place the apostle John in Ephesus and ministering throughout th eprovicnce of Asia from about 70 to 100 A.d.. It is likely that 1st, 2nd, and 3rd John were written by the apostle to Christians around 80-100ad. During the latter part of this period, the emperor Domitian intensified his persecution of Christians. John was undoubteldly placed on the island of Patmos because of Christian testimony. He was releasted after eighteen months by Emepror Nerva(96-98ad)

Theology- The book itself "The Revelation of Jesus Christ"...Christ is pictured as the glorified Son of Man, the Lion of Juday, the wroth Lamb, etc...The book details Christ's directions to the churches (chs.2&3) and describes "the wrath of the Lamb" 6:16, His judgements on the sinful world prior to His Second Coming...The death burial and resurrection are the historfical backdrop for His gracious offer of redemption from sin and eternal life...


Now that I've read as I typed, you can read it too...

Yes, we believe the dead & alive will be judged together...Where did you think we wouldn't?

We believe the Catholic church is heavily misguiding people...I'll only list one thing..if you want to discuss this more, lets go to emails or pm's...k? Jesus estabished no such prieshood for the Catholic church...Jesus Christ is our high priest and our intercessor for everything...may I suggest reading your Bible, or do they really tell you can't understand it? As to its beginnings...I don't know... I really don't "Members of the church of Christ do not conceive of themselves as a new church started near the beginning of the 19th century. Rather, the whole movement is designed to reproduce in contemporary times the church originally established on Pentecost, A.D. 30. The strength of the appeal lies in the restoration of Christ's original church."
as to my Bible, its a standard NKJV....All of that I've ever read says they were being persecuted at the time?...thats information is just from the newer one I have...What point does the Catholic church have to do with the Bible? and I don't really understand what you are getting at either...so maybe some clarification...

I've just gone back up and read that this was happening at a time that the Christians were being persecuted, so does your religion read a different version of the bible? an older version than the one found in a catholic church? or if you were to go and buy a bible would you just get "a bible"? in which case if you don't have a specific bible then yes my argument still stands, haha this is probably terribly confusing, i know, i'm getting my head around it myself now haha

like i said, what does the Catholic church have to do with the Bible?...

YES Sotdan! thanks haha couldn't have put it better myself (obviously haha), my point is if in your church you read the same bible as the Catholic church which it seems you do, then how can you possibly say that your church strives to rule itself by the way the religion was run back in AD30? that makes no sence at all, as the Bible you read is a document written centuries later, altered by time and leaders to suit their own political needs at the time. (and i'll openly admit it was altered by Romans and the Catholic church to follow)

Yes, we believe the dead & alive will be judged together...Where did you think we wouldn't?

this is where

It’s 2000 years later, if it hasn’t been fulfilled yet, Idk what to think...

that would mean in my mind that you seem to think that Revelations had already been fulfilled?

haha also i'd agree with you on the Catholic's being a heavily misguided people, but then going to any religious celebration of any faith i've found the whole thing quite a brainwashing process if you sit back and look at it from an outside point of view. Also the fact that as i have said a few times the bible was a book edited and selected by the most powerfull empire and richest organizations of the time just goes to show how little it can be trusted for historical fact. yet having been brought up as a Catholic i have to admit that for some people at least faith is a good thing, wether there is something or someone at the other end of it or not, faith itself can have an amazingly posotive effect on people and the morals the bible tries to potray are beneficial for people to learn for society to be peaceful, but then you could learn these morals equally well from many fairy tales, kids stories and some cartoons even.

haha and the Catholic church has ALOT to do with the bible, it's kind of the focal point, the thing that the Catholic church preaches from.

how big is catholocism in America anyway? I always had the impression that it was a minor player compared to all the other spin off denominations? could be wrong, i don't know thats why i'm asking haha

Obviously the answer is No, but the following questions make the subject more complex than that, because I do have beliefs regarding the Bible, just not IN the Bible.

And since I'm part of the group, my answer is just as valid. : )

jack000lad said:
Is Genesis a load of made up gobeldy gook?
Is the whole book word for word to be taken literaly?

These two go together.

No, Genesis is not a load of made up gobbeldy-gook. It is a compilation of stories--mythology from a specific people at a specific time in history. The contents of Genesis tell us a lot about the people who wrote it, the region in which they lived, and the surrounding cultural influences. Speaking from an anthropological perspective, it is a very important book--not because it holds truths of the Universe, but because it is a very well-preserved cultural artifact. It stands alongside Gilgamesh, Egyptian literature, the Rubiyyat of Omar Khayyim, and key writings of other cultures that construct our history as a community and the roots of our culture today.

Also, artifacts of language as a result of the Bible's hodge-podge authorship and formation have made it a very fruitful topic for linguists.

Much of the "wisdom" of Genesis (and the rest of the Torah by extension) is still relevant in the fact that there ARE universal human problems and themes--oppression, loss, desire, love, and so on -- that humans of all ages can relate to. It is an important piece of literature regardless of beliefs. THE most important? Probably not. But important? Yes.

This leads to the second point. The fact that the Bible is a result of multiple authors, influenced by local cultures and customs, and subject to the mores of its time means that it should not be taken 100% literally, and the parts that should be taken literally should always be held at arms distance and verified by archeological evidence.

How do you know the difference, though? Value judgments (it is immoral to...) and legends (Creation, Flood, Exodus story, Samson, etc.) should be kept in context of stories and metaphor. Frequently, they parallel themes of other local stories (such as the Flood), so any grain of truth in the story, such as "there was a flood in 6000 BCE in the Valley of Where-ever and it was incredibly devastating", have become lost in the STORYTELLING.

What should we consider more literally? Descriptions of cultural practice, descriptions of events. We should believe that a great number of the laws lined up in Leviticus and Deuteronomy were followed to the letter. We should believe that the Hebrew army went to war believing that they were God's Chosen fighting for a Promised Land as described in Numbers. We can trust that the greater amount of Kings described were actually Kings in their nation. We should not take all the figures and descriptions for granted, but we can trust that a portion of the facts are true, and believe it is an accurate account of events when archeologists (sometimes) confirm pieces of the information.

I differ from the Christians in my answer by taking this a step further. What does this information mean, how do we use it? Do we allow the blend of truth and legend to inform our lives, and is it even meaningful? The fact that value judgments leading to law is a product of the time period means that we cannot use the judgments formed to inform us today. Our time period is different. We have different mores and values. While some remained the same, the situation has changed enough to render the old solutions incomplete. Any attempt to apply Old Testament values to the modern day is disastrous -- to either the original values or the application.

We also cannot trust that just because the authors were able to accurately transcribe their cultural practices and military campaigns - truth - that they then have greater truths about the universe, God, science, and so on. All the true, literal bits of the Bible mean is that someone wrote down what was going on or who was in power--no different than the Pyramids of Egypt or the stelae of Mesopotamia.

So in conclusion: Only take literally the verifiable facts or cultural statements AS information about the culture that wrote the book. Legends are not truths about the Universe, and statements of value are thousands of years outdated.

Is it a mix of fact and generaly morals to better humanity?

Already covered the fact.

But I believe that the morals in the book were believed to be for the betterment of humanity. However, I personally disagree that they better anything other than their own selfish ends.

On the good bits (Golden Rule, Honor your Mother and Father, etc) : Similar conclusions have been reached by alienated cultures globally, and by secular or pagan philosophers, so there is no reason to believe that the Bible is unique, special, or even particularly powerful in the formation of "positive" morality.

On the bad bits (Eye for an Eye, kill / fight people who don't believe like you do, "I am a Jealous God", bears mauling kids for name calling, women must be subservient, women are "unclean" on their period (not just literally), the eternal fight for the Promised Land, convert the world, "I bring not peace but a sword", homosexuality is immoral, etc etc etc)): First of all, it seems obvious that I consider the bad parts to far outnumber and outweigh the good, but I do not believe that the bad bits are unique or special either. Groups have found other reasons and other foundations for moral filth in politics, other religions, and other arenas altogether, so its not like I'm going to specifically call out the Bible as pure corruption and "evil". I will say, however, that it is not a good moral source, and has never bettered humanity morally, with the only possible exception of well-meaning missionary workers bringing aid to disaster victims... but secular groups and other religions can and have done that too.

The fault I find in the Bible, ultimately, isn't so much that it has faults, as would be expected from a multi-authored work written thousands of years ago, its the fact that it, and the faiths based on it, does absolutely nothing to fix them. If you want to use the Bible as a moral source, your only option is to cherry pick around the nasty bits, or include them and commit your own atrocities. You're not supposed to look outside for answers on moral problems (and Saints don't count as "outside" in this case, Urocyon), in fact, any attempt at looking outside is met with resistance. You can't correct the problems in the outdated moral code, write out the slavery, make it less misogynistic, and so on, because you can't CHANGE anything. The Bible is suspended in history, and the people who rely strictly on it suspend themselves out of touch with their own time, though they rarely see it, or find themselves wrapped in a web of apologetics.

does B.I.B.L.E. to you stand for Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth?
or is it all just a load of cobblers?

I don't believe in an afterlife, so no. :P

And before someone whips out Pascal's Wager; if I am wrong (a possibility I do consider), the chances of the "real" afterlife being a Christian one is very, very slim. Slim enough that if it were true, I would be genuinely surprised to find myself in front of the Biblical God being sorted into the goats on his left hand.


I won't go too much into other people's discussion but I will mention:
how big is catholocism in America anyway? I always had the impression that it was a minor player compared to all the other spin off denominations? could be wrong, i don't know thats why i'm asking haha

I grew up Catholic in America so I know a bit about this. First, it depends on where you live. There are some heavily Catholic areas, but the large majority of the country is Protestant of one denomination or another. Intersting fun fact: Catholic areas and traditional Irish immigrant areas have a positive correlation. I've got some Irish in me, some Italian, so there's my Catholic, but my hometown was traditionally heavily German farming, with a certain percentage of Irish also, so while I was still a "minority" religious wise (the 60-20% figure stands), I was in a liberal enough area that no one cared... as long as you were Christian of some stripe. Other areas, Catholics can have a very hard time, but these days most people just care that you believe in a God, but preferably the Christian one.

Where people DO care about Catholics though, is in politics. The last thing the "American people" want are Catholics in power, because they don't want the Vatican to have an influence here, it would go against our sensibilities of Freedom of Religion. The irony is that no one cares about having Protestants of certain denominations in power, even though the leaders of those denominations then have influence... Ted Haggard had a hotline to President Bush before he was busted for gay affairs and drugs. Mmm going a little off topic... XD


But anyway, hopefully that was helpful, and I'm open for all kinds of questions. :)

ok so i've gone off topic a bit but hey, so heres a question i have always wanted to ask someone like you TeeHee, do you not think, that perhaps instead of devoting your time to prayer and going to religious gatherings, your time would be more appreciated and more fullfilling actually doing what some would call "God's Work" what others would call "voluntary work" and what i call my Job, helping those in need?

Well, yes and no since you ask...We don't really have lots of religious gatherings per say...all we have is our sunday worship service and biblestudy in the evening, and a wednesday night bible study,....so in a way...it really consumes little time to be doing God's work...and praying is the same as well, I don't take an hour to pray, I simply pray for the important things on my mind....a couple minutes at the most.

But yes, I find it really great to be doing God's work, as to worship and what not, the fact I believe in God and wish to do his will means I also wish to pay tribute/worship to him...So while that takes little time out of a week, the rest can be spent doing God's work on my free time. Personally, I'm going into law enforcement and I hope that instead of being a tyrant, I wish to help those who have their lives messed up and who need to realize they're ruining their one lifetime...why go through a troublesome life and dealing with the law, when you can clean yourself up and work for the common good of society... =)

Fair enough, your religion still takes up more time than the average Catholic though, and i don't know if thats a good or a bad thing?

Well, well, as to church services, we just go by the New Testament...(sing, pray, preach, remember Lord's death (communion), etc...So as to whether or not Its a good or bad thing...I guess you have to decide whether following the New Testament example is a good or bad thing.

Non-beleivers, Athiests, Agnostics, and those from other religions, would you say these people are miss-guided, follow a different path to the same ultimate end, or by chance because they were born into a different family and environment they were just tought differently, or what?

Obviously, all of us are not on the same path, at least not where we are going in life, we as Christians goal ourselves towards being righteous by the Bible, whereaas the rest of the world just does whatever I guess, seeks out other knowledge I guess? Has fun?...Idk...But as to how they become started on their path and why...that would be left to family and environmental issues...I grew up in a Christian family, therefore I'm more likely to follow the Bible, some grow up with the Bible, something bad happens, they blame it on God, and therefore they go another path...some just grow up without God, so the only values they have are based on the society around them.....With me as a Christian, the Bible shapes my life, to the rest of the world, well, obviously unless you are set on being 'who you are', the world will define you...right?

And then if someone doesn't follow your religion (and this goes for anyone who has any religious beleife in anything from God, to Allah, Jedi's to swiss cheese) do you think that when they die they go the hell even if they led a good life?

Who am I to judge, the Lord gave us his word through the many books right? In effect what he gave us was his law...Therefore, he is the judge of the Law, to figure who is righteous and who is not...I can formulate opinions, but here again I would be judging....As someone once reminded me of a verse in the Bible and I'll paraphrase..."Brother, look at the plank in your eye before looking at the speck in mine"...I will leave the judging up to God...With that said, I cannot put words in God's mouth as to the believers, vs. nonbelievers, vs. those in tribes of Africa....

What I do believe though, is that those who definitely live by the Bible, WILL, find heaven...those who are faithful and have served faithfully...

no no they all add to the converstations development, i find it interesting that you say how Islam caused much problems due to their views, hahaha but to be fair the Christians were doing the same thing, and then you had the crusades, the Christians didn't much like the newreligion encroaching on their turf and a holy war started. as much based on ideology as on greed and power, in fact the later took presedence, the Templars and such kept the highways free from robbers to allow rich merchants and tourists flowing through to the holy land safely and therfore profits increased. you can't look back on the Christians development from the past without seeing corruption and greed, they come part and parcell.

Meanwhile Teehee (nice avatar by the way) i agree with you on the whole "who am i to judge" thing BUT if all those who truly beleived in the bible and followed it and did good etc etc definatly get into heaven, thats a very VERY small percentage of humans, in thw whole of history, and so all these people who are innocent, of everything, had led good lives and all, but just never either followed Christ, or never had the oppertunity to (e.g. BC) are left to go to Hell? or what? besides there probably better off, because all you will end up with in heaven are people who think and act identically and that would be as boring and miserable, in fact that would be hell. so either God is filltering through the Humans to pick out the very best beleivers for a heavenly Arian race, or else there has to be some allowence for the people who leaded good lives, just without God, but then that would upset Chreistians who would then say well why am i wasting my time with Jesus when i could just get on with life without him and still get in to heaven.

so i feel when choosing a religion, you really need to be careful and actually put a bit of thought into it first hand. because in some cases you may be following a God who segregates the human population, and sends billions to burn in the fires of hell, personally i'm all for a god that is for everyone rather than a god thats just for his worshippers. I sit in church and i think to myself "do not worship false idols... hmm lovely big cross, a Jesus on it who could for all we know, have been looked at in Moses' time as a false idol, and not only that but to boil it all down after picking holes in Christianity's frail attempt at explaining everything, yopu miss the fundemental point, what happens to all those who don't beleive, where do they go?"

and in a multi-cultural society that we all now live in, i have to ask myself when i die, if i go to heaven my picture of heaven certainly isn't worshipping the big man God, i wanna play frisbee with the bloke, but more importantly i want all my freinds and family their too because that 's heaven, and it wouldn't be heaven without them, so if they don't beleive in God, or if they beleive in another God and they don't get into heaven, then what's the point of being there?" no thanks

Now Grey Fox and Tee hee you tell me, honestly, that if you get into heaven and your family and freinds have all been condemned to hell for whatever reasons, you honestly tell me that you will still be happy up there kneeling for all eternity in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. because if thats true, and you would still happily do that, then you are just hollow! you have fallen into the trap that Catholocism set centurys ago to maintain controll over its followers, a trap that now seems to have dwindeld away from Catholics and has set itself anew in spin off denominations around the world where all out devotion and love is given to the Lord even over your own family. well skrew that!

Now Grey Fox and Tee hee you tell me, honestly, that if you get into heaven and your family and freinds have all been condemned to hell for whatever reasons, you honestly tell me that you will still be happy up there kneeling for all eternity in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. because if thats true, and you would still happily do that, then you are just hollow! you have fallen into the trap that Catholocism set centurys ago to maintain controll over its followers, a trap that now seems to have dwindeld away from Catholics and has set itself anew in spin off denominations around the world where all out devotion and love is given to the Lord even over your own family. well skrew that!

Here again, this group is a battle between believers and non-believers...If you tak the Bible for what it says "there be few that find Heaven"....then that means a greater percentage is going elsewhere equaling hell...and whether thats is literal fire, which I doubt, but in any case everywhere its mentioned as torment...If my family does not believe in the Bible & reject it, the punishment is spelled out...If we love God for what he has done for us with his Son, then we wouldn't mind being in Heaven worshipping him...Its also mentioned in the Bible there will be no sorrow or crying in heaven, so however that works, sadness won't be there...To say decent good boy or good girl is going to heaven goes against what the Bible teaches, on the other side of this...you can say its unfair that some of our family members, friends, etc. will go to Hell, well what can I say...It may not be fair, but eternal rest sounds a lot better than eternal punishment. If my parents go to Hell, its their own fault and that sounds harsh, but the only reason we say its unfair is because our emotions get into it....I'm just the type of person that has learned to accept the blunt truth...If we start to disbelieve what the Bible teaches and we begin to reason that everyone is going to heaven, then we might as well decide at that point whether we are going to believe it or not.... Once you start changing the message of the Bible, then where do you stop? So in my mind, one either accepts it or disowns it. Obviously the worldly / the evil / murderrs, etc. will go to hell...To add to the verses in Romans from Urocyon...let us think...Jesus came to be a physician for those who are sick? right? Yes! So those who do the things of the Bible, they are being the good people they ought to be...however those who blatantly are bad and/or reject the word, (those who are in need of a physician because they are "sick")...die (physical in the world perspective) (spiritually in the eternal destination)...and if you are one who completely believes the Bible, then lets let the Bible speak for itself....give us verses...and we'll have a discussion on that...

ok so we all go to heaven then? its just that those who never beleived wont "shine" so much and as a result be miserable and "embarassed" in the light of the lord? ok? but see how come thats in the same bible that you both read yet you both have such a different view of the after life?

and no i can't give you vurses, for a start i've never read the whole bible, secondly i've not got anywhere near enough time to read it (haha and i know what you're saying now) but i'm currently reading a book on world war 2 first hand accounts and i've about 12 books after that which i recently bought and want to read haha, and thirdly i grew up learning the bible in a completly different fashion to most, we were read stories from the bible which were adapted and edited for children, in nice illustrated books which still held the moral meaning of the stories but in a more attractive and understandable fashion for children to remember them, and i have to admit it worked for me anyway haha, plus i have absaloutly no intention of pouring over my bible and picking out quotes to argue over when the whole thing is so arguable and everyone has an opinion on the bible, but if you go in to it everyone has a different opinion on each verse to,

so Jesus offers you eternity of worshipping him in his own glory, if you die and find it's all wrong that theres actually eternall happiness or something but all those who lived good lives got in (this is very broad example now but you get the idea) how would you feel? gutted that theres no Jesus and you devoted your life to him? or what?

and yah thats a brill pic Teehee! i like very much haha