Hard Rock or Heavy Metal?

 
    • Manowar1 schrieb...
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    • 18. Feb. 2008, 8:31
    Black Sabbath is Heavy Metal - of course. Who the hell played Heavy Metal if not them?

    As for the "inventor" of the style, you must go back a little further to Iron Butterfly (formed in 1966)

  • Iron Butterfly weren't the "inventors" of metal, Blue Cheer were closer.

    • Manowar1 schrieb...
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    • 19. Feb. 2008, 1:44
    BlackSabbath86 said:
    Iron Butterfly weren't the "inventors" of metal, Blue Cheer were closer.


    Blue Cheer was formed 2 years LATER than Iron Butterfly.
    "Iron" IS a type of heavy metal.
    Iron Butterfly released an album titled "Heavy".

  • But they weren't really heavy, which is my point.

    • Manowar1 schrieb...
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    • 2. Mär. 2008, 8:45
    BlackSabbath86 said:
    But they weren't really heavy, which is my point.


    I had to do some research on Blue Cheer. Generally Iron Butterfly played heavier than Blue Cheer.
    Blue Cheer started in 1968, (2 years later than Iron B), and played the heavy guitar riffs in an incoherent style, somewhat like Jimi Hendrix, lacking long rhythmic riffs (= not a true heavy metal). By 1970 they lost their heaviness and played simple rock. In the 1980's they re-recorded their old songs in a more modern heavy metal style. Most of you think these heavier songs were made in the 1960's, - sorry, but that is a misconception.
    On the other hand, Iron Butterfly started in 1966, and played their heavy songs in the true heavy metal style made famous by Black Sabbath later. Listen to 'In-a-Gadda-da-Vida', 'Are You Ready', and 'Termination'.
    Note: The above comparison was made using the bands' most heavier songs, considering that each bands albums contained various genres, which was "normal" at the time.

    • moneen02 schrieb...
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    • 6. Mär. 2008, 4:16

    Metal

    I am sorry, I didn't take time to read every response in this thread so I am sure this has been said...

    Sabbath is pure metal.

    • moneen02 schrieb...
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    • 6. Mär. 2008, 4:19
    Manowar1 said:
    BlackSabbath86 said:
    But they weren't really heavy, which is my point.


    I had to do some research on Blue Cheer. Generally Iron Butterfly played heavier than Blue Cheer.
    Blue Cheer started in 1968, (2 years later than Iron B), and played the heavy guitar riffs in an incoherent style, somewhat like Jimi Hendrix, lacking long rhythmic riffs (= not a true heavy metal). By 1970 they lost their heaviness and played simple rock. In the 1980's they re-recorded their old songs in a more modern heavy metal style. Most of you think these heavier songs were made in the 1960's, - sorry, but that is a misconception.
    On the other hand, Iron Butterfly started in 1966, and played their heavy songs in the true heavy metal style made famous by Black Sabbath later. Listen to 'In-a-Gadda-da-Vida', 'Are You Ready', and 'Termination'.
    Note: The above comparison was made using the bands' most heavier songs, considering that each bands albums contained various genres, which was "normal" at the time.


    Well said, I was actually going to discuss Blue Cheer and Iron B... You can almost throw Vanilla Fudge in there too.

  • I didn't say Blue Cheer were heavy metal. Just that their heavy songs were heavier than Iron Butterfly, and I wasn't referring to their '80s material. The point is the line needs to be drawn somewhere, and I say it's drawn at Black Sabbath.

    • _Tarkus_ schrieb...
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    • 6. Mär. 2008, 11:00
    My line = your line.

  • Leader of the King Crimson group agrees with me. :D

    • _Tarkus_ schrieb...
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    • 6. Mär. 2008, 17:49
    BlackSabbath86 said:
    Leader of the King Crimson group agrees with me. :D

    LOL!

    • Ed-Nigma schrieb...
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    • 7. Mär. 2008, 11:50
    I'd say Sabbath were 'Heavy Metal' with a 'Hard Rock' core.

    • _Tarkus_ schrieb...
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    • 7. Mär. 2008, 12:06
    Genres are really unimportant in the overall scheme of things, but I think early Ozzy-Sabbath deserve their own genre, because to this day, that sound remains unique. 100 years from now, long after we're all gone, those first four albums will remain special. No one has come close to duplicating that sound.

    Though Witch is giving it a good go. ;p

    • Manowar1 schrieb...
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    • 9. Mär. 2008, 15:36
    BlackSabbath86 said:
    I didn't say Blue Cheer were heavy metal. Just that their heavy songs were heavier than Iron Butterfly, and I wasn't referring to their '80s material. The point is the line needs to be drawn somewhere, and I say it's drawn at Black Sabbath.


    I can agree on Black Sabbath based on that they were the 1st band playing heavy metal on over 50% of their tracks.
    Can you post the 3 heaviest tracks from Blue Cheer you are referring to, I can't seem to find them :0

    • Manowar1 schrieb...
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    • 9. Mär. 2008, 15:49
    BlackSabbath86 said:
    Leader of the King Crimson group agrees with me. :D


    The leader of Deep Purple and Uriah Heep and Mr. moneen02 agree with me :D :D

    • Manowar1 schrieb...
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    • 9. Mär. 2008, 16:05
    _Tarkus_ said:
    Genres are really unimportant in the overall scheme of things, but I think early Ozzy-Sabbath deserve their own genre, because to this day, that sound remains unique. 100 years from now, long after we're all gone, those first four albums will remain special. No one has come close to duplicating that sound.

    Though Witch is giving it a good go. ;p


    I strongly agree with you about the 1st 4 Sabbath albums.
    However, I disagree on the lack of talented duplicators. Check out Saint Vitus, Candlemass, Count Raven and Pagan Altar, they play in excellent classic Sabbath style.

  • Saint Vitus are terrible! I don't think Candlemass are particularly "Sabbathy" either... the closest band to being like Sabbath were Bedemon, formed in 1971.

    • _Tarkus_ schrieb...
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    • 10. Mär. 2008, 2:03
    Other bands may have somewhat similar styles (and I realize it's all subjective), but Iommi and Ozzy were so radically unique, and the songwriting (at least on the first four albums) perfectly fit those radically unique styles.

    And I don't mean to demean Ward's and Geezer's contributions, both of whom I love, but I think it's the Ozzy/Iommi combo that made them unique to this day.

    I mentioned Witch earlier. A lot of people, myself included, are reminded of early Sabbath with their debut album (follow up coming very soon). But they don't have Ozzy. No one does or ever will (at least in his prime). That's the difference.

  • I listened to the free Witch songs on here... I didn't think they were remotely Sabbathy.

    • _Tarkus_ schrieb...
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    • 11. Mär. 2008, 3:05
    Like I said, it's all subjective, but others I've told about them, the first reaction out of their mouth (or keyboard) was they sound like old Sabbath. And their official MySpace page reflects similar sentiments from many of their fans.

    Not saying your wrong; I'm just further illustrating the subjective nature of such comparisons.

    • Manowar1 schrieb...
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    • 11. Mär. 2008, 4:23
    BlackSabbath86 said:
    Saint Vitus are terrible! I don't think Candlemass are particularly "Sabbathy" either... the closest band to being like Sabbath were Bedemon, formed in 1971.


    It seems you just argue for the sake of argument without anything to substantiate your statements. I just looked at the Bedemon page, and guess who is the most similar artist: Saint Vitus. :)

    I am still waiting for your examples of the heaviest Blue Cheer songs

  • Have you seen Sabbath's similar artists recently? Using the similar artists function of this site is a very weak argument... I'd rarely agree with what Last.fm claim to be similar.

    Once I get my record player up and running I'll let you know about the Blue Cheer songs.

    • _Tarkus_ schrieb...
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    • 11. Mär. 2008, 19:41
    Similar Artists doesn't mean what it's called, and perhaps what you think. It means Artists Who Share Many of the Same Fans.

    It has nothing at all to do with music styles, other than the fact that many fans tend to listen to a certain style most of the time, so their counts would lean in that direction.

  • Thank you. :)

  • Heavy metal. and the father of doom metal.

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